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Why risk versus reward doesn't matter

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Ace Uoweme Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 34	Posted - 2013.04.02 01:37:00 - [1] - Quote The risk is scripted here. I just posted about having an interceptor like mining vessel (good for gas/moon/ore mining, with 100% yield and like a 5000m3 for any mat or refine) that can be used for ninja mining. The concept is good because it gets miners into the action (real miners not the AFK "I need to make some isk for my main to pewpewpew" types) with true risk vs rewards. It's not done. Why? Because the script is: get territory it's all yours. Look what it caused as a result. Nullbears don't have to fear invaders but other massive blobs. It turned the game into EQ with a few raid guilds trying to dictate the economy. So been there, done that, got the Quafe T-Shirt. The game needs a shakeup, where there's no comfort zones from any party. We need tiers of the hunted being the hunted. We need resources that's available to anyone willing to take the risks, too. "In a world of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." ~George Orwell
Ace Uoweme Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 35	Posted - 2013.04.02 06:21:00 - [2] - Quote Tesal wrote: Andski wrote: imagine a space-themed amusement park and you have several rides that's what eve is basically going towards Themepark = catastrophe. EvE is dying. Everyone will quit and the game will end. Oh god!!! What will I do with all my free time? Oh god!!! But it is the themepark that maybe attracting them. I didn't know incursions existed upon returning, but after finding out, going to skill up to get in those fleets as a Logi (was in a corp that just as they moved their HQ to null, an incursion hit in the HQ system. They avoided the gate/zone yet it meant they were stuck for a week in null without resupply [they didn't have the ships and support to close it, and were being instapopped just trying to get past the gate]. Had PvPers enjoying industry for a while or no PvP). Why the interest? They're much like raids: FC (tank); Logi chains (healers); and assorted squads of DPS (melee/ranged/CCers). That it also requires high skills and expensive ships it's tailored to players from MMOs that are used to hardcore raiding, too. So CCP is slipping in such content that would appeal to that very themepark demographic. "In a world of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." ~George Orwell
Ace Uoweme Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 36	Posted - 2013.04.02 19:04:00 - [3] - Quote Jenn aSide wrote: But why do you think more "cancer" would be welcomed lol. The "cancer" are gamers who are truly anti-social (and I don't mean just unfriendly). The danger here with EvE is this "no holds bar" development philosophy can/does attract some really sick people. Since they only look out for themselves, they don't even care to look at the bigger issue their actions can cause. It's that MEMEME, self-entitlement -- forever feed my Id and Ego -- mentality that ruins gameplay MUCH more than any PvEr. "In a world of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." ~George Orwell
Ace Uoweme Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 37	Posted - 2013.04.03 00:00:00 - [4] - Quote Murk Paradox wrote: You might try to pretend you are doing this for CCP's benefit, but you aren't. You're doing this for your own benefit. Just like everyone else. Otherwise we'd be in a different subforum discussing this. Actually, general forums are where folks mostly discuss this stuff. I rarely posted on the class and other forums on the WoW/Rift/EQII forums. Everyone who was anyone parked themselves in general. And I truly don't do it for the politics and headaches it can cause (especially the dogpiles and bait/report games), but do it because I like to play with many people, not more niche numbered games filled with dinosaurs. It's a MMO, it's suppose to be m-a-s-s-i-v-e. It's suppose to support a variety of playstyles. And I talk about all the issues not just the talking points...then claiming to be "independent". I'm truly independent. Could n-e-v-e-r be on the powerblocks leash. "In a world of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." ~George Orwell
Ace Uoweme Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 37	Posted - 2013.04.03 00:36:00 - [5] - Quote RubyPorto wrote: Quick, what does a Bulletproof Vest provide? Protection. Quick, I think 10001 players in High-Sec could actually use a bulletproof vest (with ceramic plates even), as CONCORD does jack for protection. By the time CONCORD gets to you, you're dead, and the other dude is just waiting for his cheap gank ship to get blown up (he loses nothing, as NPCs don't pod him, either). If CONCORD really was about protection, they would've been like my dad who was a cop...right there, with a weapon right at the ear of an offender. Move. Dead. CCP plays musical chairs with CONCORD, because they have an issue of "How do we get them to engage in PvP?". They can't just throw the new players into null in a skills based game (ever wonder why FPS games have gear normalization...now you know). If they're just cannon fodder for the nth time, they won't even stay to finish the trial. No one likes the spawn camp feel. Personally, from my perspective, to introduce PvP to new players (or hesistent players) is to get them interested. One aspect on the right track are those incursions. It's something they understand, it's much like a raid. Once I learned of the the incursions, I asked, "where's the healing role?" and leveling up a repper. It's something now I understand and do well at. If I find some PvP along the way, it's like Tol Borad. Faction Warfare is like BGs (except it can ruin standings). If CCP removed the standings penalties folks may engage in it more. If it was fashioned more like missions, even more would participate. I would love to do it, as in WoW I was a Alliance fanboi, and really got into the faction warfare...DIE, HORDE, DIE! But it has to be in stages and in ways players can understand. Be it a MMO or FPS player. So this is something for CCP to think about. How much REAL protection do they offer, and how many players they really want subscribed. Because they can just look at the 800lb gorilla in the room for ideas on what's popular 10 years running. Time is money, friend. "In a world of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." ~George Orwell
Ace Uoweme Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 37	Posted - 2013.04.03 00:55:00 - [6] - Quote Fredfredbug4 wrote: In hi-sec, there will always be a nice cozy station for you to go to. In null, you might log in to find yourself locked out of your station or unable to warp to it without a likely hood of dying. I have a newbie alt in null (anyone need a spy???). He rode down there in a shuttle and been sitting there for a couple of years. Was going to biomass him, but he's in juicy territory and pretty darn safe. The current residents must be beside themselves of a neutral right in their station unaccounted for. Null has a lot of fighting. You do want backup, but anyone can get in and stay a l-o-n-g time. Just wished I parked some more alts in all of the big alliance regions (can always train them as an cyano alt...). "In a world of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." ~George Orwell
Ace Uoweme Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 37	Posted - 2013.04.03 02:50:00 - [7] - Quote RubyPorto wrote: So... your Dad never heard of response times, I guess? I guess he already knew about them being an infantryman in Korea and Vietnam. Like if you don't respond fast enough your buddies and you are going to die. Which is why he got the bronze star in Korea, by knocking out a machinegun nest that was pinning down the squad. RubyPorto wrote: CCP has seen its subscriber numbers consistently grow since EVE launched in 2003 (the only MMO on the market to have done so). In the past year or two, Blizzard has hemorrhaged about 5 EVEs worth of subscribers (2011 peak of 12m, down to a Jan 2013 9.6m). And where did these players come from again (as MMOs share many of the same players)? Do you know how many who play EvE and playing WoW? You bet it's more than the "vets" in numbers. No MMO is a an island. "In a world of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." ~George Orwell
Ace Uoweme Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 37	Posted - 2013.04.03 03:18:00 - [8] - Quote RubyPorto wrote: Are Police in your conception of reality both Omniscient and Omnipresent? They would be nice to have in EvE. Having them jail or even kill Goons and likewise pirates would be a blessing...and you know many would be rooting for the cleanup, too. RubyPorto wrote: If So, where is this magic fairyland? Knock, knock: you're playing EvE. I hope you don't think it's reality. "In a world of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." ~George Orwell
Ace Uoweme Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 37	Posted - 2013.04.03 04:10:00 - [9] - Quote RubyPorto wrote: I know what service CONCORD provides (it's Protection) You also are claiming CONCORD can't be tanked. Ask your Goon gatecampers how uninformed that remark is! You can definitely tank their guns, especially if going for a prized target. Now off for some fun... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-qwmnizB9Oo "In a world of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." ~George Orwell
Ace Uoweme Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 37	Posted - 2013.04.03 09:07:00 - [10] - Quote March rabbit wrote: The one observation still remains: "bad guys" usually spend 10x times more posts for tears than their victims This was a refreshing read... = Read the Last Comment = "In a world of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." ~George Orwell

Ace Uoweme Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 47	Posted - 2013.04.04 01:33:00 - [11] - Quote Nexus Day wrote: RubyPorto wrote: Policemen do not, as a rule, have the responsibility (or ability) to prevent any specific crime. All they can do is investigate and punish (simplifying) the criminal after the the crime has occurred. They punish that criminal according to certain laws. I don't know where you live but here we have patrol cars. The operative word being patrol. Police do not punish criminals, they apprehend them for trial. Only in certain cases do the laws allow them to deal out punishment, usually in retaliation to violence. And there's many ways to patrol and punish. Much more than this CONCORD concept. I would love to have public stocks so the pirates and scammers who are caught can be pelted with trash. A gaol for the really awful of the lot. And some Nuremberg trials for alliance leaders to face executions. And I'll even pay for it. But, hey, I'm the "carebear". "In a world of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." ~George Orwell
Ace Uoweme Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 77	Posted - 2013.04.06 03:01:00 - [12] - Quote RubyPorto wrote: the comparison breaks down because there are no Crimes in EVE that CONCORD doesn't already punish nigh-instantly. Wrong. By the time CONCORD gets to who they're suppose to "serve and protect", they're dead and the assailant is just waiting to die. He accomplished what he set off to do, and wasting nothing in a throw away ship. Pointless "protection". "In a world of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." ~George Orwell
Ace Uoweme Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 77	Posted - 2013.04.06 03:25:00 - [13] - Quote RubyPorto wrote: Works the same way with the protection that Police provide. No. Had a drunk neighbor who wouldn't leave my yard. Called the cops, they arrived within 10mins. Cop asked the dude to get out of the car. He refused. Cop pulled out his Glock, pointed it behind his ear, and asked him to get out of the car. The dude carefully did. Last summer some neighbors and whoever started shouting and carrying out a scene before my yard. Shouting; throwing their jackets on the street; and it getting nastier by the minute. Called the cops, 10mins later, 3 patrol cars literally screeched to a halt before them. Told them to stop, went to the neighbor (still screaming) and told her point blank to shut up or she'll be arrested. 19 people were out there...19...and damn if their antics was going to hurt my mom. The scene was dispersed, but I'm sure the cops would've used whatever means at their disposal to stop the situation before it truly got out of hand. CONCORD in EvE, arrives 3 days late, is like Barney Fife (complete with one trusty bullet in his pocket) and could handle but one player at a time. No, it's not policing at all. "In a world of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." ~George Orwell
Ace Uoweme Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 77	Posted - 2013.04.06 04:00:00 - [14] - Quote RubyPorto wrote: What's confusing you is that there are no crimes in EVE that aren't (for lack of a better term) point-source. Your examples are both examples of ongoing crime lasting quite a long time. EVE doesn't really have those. All of them didn't face any charges. And what is confusing you is -- the examples shows you what cops actually do day-to-day to keep peace. When folks talk about policing, it's cops who arrive on time and remedy the problem (either by getting the offender away; arrests; or if needed using deadly force), in a timely fashion. I never had to wait longer than 10mins for a cop to be at my door. That's RL times. Ingame it should be instant. Devs know where the draw the line. They see the results when it's not done. Newbies are protected until they leveled/skilled enough to fight on their own. Otherwise, police need to be actual police. "In a world of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." ~George Orwell
Ace Uoweme Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 78	Posted - 2013.04.06 04:46:00 - [15] - Quote Captain Tardbar wrote: Not only will they arrest you for commiting a crime, but also will arrest you if they suspect you of planning to commit a crime. There you go. Probable cause. +1 "In a world of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." ~George Orwell
Ace Uoweme Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 78	Posted - 2013.04.06 06:08:00 - [16] - Quote RubyPorto wrote: Doesn't matter if they faced charges. The Police officer only had the authority to do what he did because they were committing a crime. A Police officer who tries to intimidate someone who is not committing a crime is, himself, committing a crime. Cops wouldn't have known it was any crime until they arrived. None were cited, so by the law itself no crime occurred. They did get a scare of their life though. Cops intimidate all the time, as it helps to PREVENT crime. My dad held a transpasser into the air until cops arrived before. Poor boy must've dropped his load, when dad berated him as dad looks/acts every bit the DI he was. He never came back again, because around here transpass at 3am, I hope the guy likes Swiss cheese (my neighbor actually shot trespassers with rock salt, and even getting a shot at one guy's rear with it). Between that and the Vietnam vet at one corner who'd dress down punks, and the AR-15 nut (his house is even lit like a prison), even a foreign invasion would have a problem. It's the fear of the real consequences that keeps crime at bay, especially personal consequences. RubyPorto wrote: Would you prefer that CONCORD delivered a stern talking-to to gankers instead of blowing up their ship? If it was like my father would give (seen Full Metal Jacket? Dad was worse), I think it'll prevent so much crime CONCORD would only show up for the real baddies. "In a world of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." ~George Orwell
Ace Uoweme Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 80	Posted - 2013.04.06 06:23:00 - [17] - Quote Frying Doom wrote: As they can do nothing until a Law has been broken. It just depends on what potential crimes. Folks can lawyer all the time over what can or can't be done, but with cops you'd never know until they arrive. The scenerios I posted about could've came out very deadly very quickly...the cops arrived just like in some movie on those 19. Literally swung around the curve and stopping within a foot of one guy and running out of the cars. With how they decked out their patrol cars, the sound of the arrival was scary enough. It was that in itself that probably dispersed them (they looked bewildered). The cop addressing the woman, he wasn't playing when he ordered her to shut up or be arrested. One thing is for sure where I live law and order is truly law and order. And we like it that way and pay for it...33 cops per 1000 residents. Why less than 10min response times. So when I see CONCORD in EvE it's pretty weak, slow and ineffective. "In a world of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." ~George Orwell
Ace Uoweme Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 89	Posted - 2013.04.06 13:22:00 - [18] - Quote Lord Zim wrote: Murk Paradox wrote: What crime is prevented by Concord? Remove concord from hisec for a week, and you'll soon find out. Not much would change, because players would be doing what they already are doing. So much for prevention. "In a world of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." ~George Orwell
Ace Uoweme Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 89	Posted - 2013.04.06 13:44:00 - [19] - Quote RubyPorto wrote: Had your dad held some random innocent civilian on the sidewalk at gunpoint, guess who would have gone to jail. Because intimidating someone who has not committed a crime is, itself, a crime. Nope. If there was an explosion at a plant, and people are nearby and not moving out, you bet the cops will do what they have to to clear the zone. Perfectly innocent people even, but the zone is dangerous and room is needed for emergency personel. He doesn't need a warrant. He doesn't even need suspicion. To maintain law and order he can and will pull his weapon even on innocent folks to get them to obey. It's not the time or place to be a troll or worse. Ace Uoweme wrote: Police: 10 minute Response time, call it 80% conviction rate => Fast and Effective CONCORD: 30 second Response time, 100% conviction and punishment rate => Slow and Ineffective. Good logic there, buddy. It's perfect logic, since this is a game and things can be programmed to be an instant response. In reality cops have to actually travel --real time-- to the scene. A <10min response is pretty darn quick in reality. Especially if the substation isn't across the street. There's none of those issues in a game, at all. "In a world of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." ~George Orwell
Ace Uoweme Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 89	Posted - 2013.04.06 14:00:00 - [20] - Quote Lord Zim wrote: Oh, so you think hisec wouldn't turn into a total bloodbath until people stopped undocking, because griefers would kill everyone? They already do kill. That's not prevention. If CONCORD was to actually protect against and prevent crime -- in a game -- that wouldn't happen. Devs can program the game to instant kill offenders the second they engage in offensive acts (like disarming the safety to attack a none criminal or non war-decced player). So it's a very moot point. Issue here is the protection and prevention is selective and slow. It's allowing the suicide ganker to gank before CONCORD arrives. Coming after the effect to administer justice, is ineffective protection and prevention, especially in a game where CONCORD could have instant warp and gib weapons. It's selective as a means to allow it to happen. Much like issuing service weapons without ammo and taking a scenic route to get to the crime scene. "In a world of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." ~George Orwell

Ace Uoweme Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 95	Posted - 2013.04.07 00:42:00 - [21] - Quote Nexus Day wrote: Most of this talk about Concord is just sour grapes. Ah, no, it's observation and correcting some false beliefs what policing is or not. "In a world of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." ~George Orwell

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